T O P

AMD pays Blender at least $140,000 annually and after two years still no Vulkan support and Blender removes all support for AMD GPUs and optimized Blender for Nvidia exclusively. (Cycles X)

AMD pays Blender at least $140,000 annually and after two years still no Vulkan support and Blender removes all support for AMD GPUs and optimized Blender for Nvidia exclusively. (Cycles X)

meme_dika

That was a worst open-source project move I've ever seen. Seems blender have [deals with Adobe](https://www.blender.org/press/adobe-joins-blender-development-fund/) recently, which made it worse for AMD GPU position.


BlazingFiery

Doesn't Adobe make competing products to blender?


mattescala

Actually, not that I can think of.. Adobe tried to make a rendering software a while back but never got much attention... Makes you wonder..


carnivor_666

nVidia: "If you fuck AMD over, we'll pay you." nVidia has been a fucking asshole company ever since they started. Buuut ppl don't seem to care much.


pipe01

I'll never buy an Nvidia GPU, even if it means that I pay more for less


pieteek

So Linus Torvalds was right... again


carnivor_666

That he was my friend...that he was.


RecommendationNo33

Well... I could imagine that nvidia is paying them a lot more. It is not a better idea to contract your own developers in house and contribute to the project? I believe it would take AMD 2 to 3 developers full time dedicated to Blender and each developer is going to be 50K/year (roughly, not US based). That is the best approach, IMO.


DevGamerLB

Unfortunately I don't think AMD cares enough. Consumer grade GPUs are the lowest priority in their corporate strategy. AMD is focusing on the server GPU/CPU market and the console/semi-custom market where they make the real money. Not good for the consumer market at all.


RecommendationNo33

The ROCm protect needs a lot of polish. I believe AMD should hire more developers.


braindeadmonkey2

Console doesn't make them a lot of money, it's just a guaranteed low risk low profit deal.


bettermakeitlast

Since Sony and Microsoft don't make money (on the hardware itself) I think it's the opposite.


otot_

Actually, the [PS5 with disc support is no longer being sold at a loss.](https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ps5-no-longer-being-sold-at-a-loss-at-least-not-the-main-model/1100-6494775/) ​ The cheaper model ^(that doesn't include a disc reader) is still a loss leader though, afaik.


sabot00

In the US the cost per dev per year is prob 200k. Even in med COL cities like Austin or Boston a SWE 2 is going to be making easily 150k+, add the benefits like health insurance and 401k matching and the actual cost to the company is prob around 200k.


Behrooz0

Then hire someone from eastern Europe. I don't think their math is worse than 'muricans.


UtsavTiwari

Or someone from Asia, they work at low cost with high productivity


4chieve

Never used Blender extensively but it seems they have their solution for it with a plug-in. https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/radeon-prorender-blender


jozews321

Wtf is this true?


DevGamerLB

Yeah, AMD is a member of Blenders developement fund and has been donating over $139,000 for over two years. In response Blender claimed they will use the funds to support vulkan and **KEEP** AMD hardware **WELL** supported as you can see in the tweet from Blender. Since then Blender has continued to have bad AMD GPU support, No Vulkan, no hardware raytracing, nothing for two years. Now Blender has decided to end all OpenCL/AMD support in Blender. All future Blender versions will be optimized exclusively for Nvidia via Optix kernels starting with the new Cycles X render. As of right now the latest Blender/CyclesX will not support AMD GPUs at all and Blender has yet to announce any official support for AMD GPUs in future builds. https://code.blender.org/2021/04/cycles-x/


Arkeros

Relevant part >Deprecation As part of the new architecture, we are removing some functionality. Most notably: > >OpenCL rendering kernels. The combination of the limited Cycles split kernel implementation, driver bugs, and stalled OpenCL standard has made maintenance too difficult. We can only make the kinds of bigger changes we are working on now by starting from a clean slate. We are working with AMD and Intel to get the new kernels working on their GPUs, possibly using different APIs (such as CYCL, HIP, Metal, …). This will not necessarily be ready for the first release, the implementation needs to reach a higher quality bar than what is there now. Long term, supporting all major GPU hardware vendors remains an important goal, and we think that with this new architecture we’ll be able to better performance and something stability. It is just a matter of time until more GPUs are supported in Cycles X again.


DevGamerLB

At this point Blender doesn't even care enough to lie convincingly. They spelled SYCL wrong which clearly means they haven't looked into it and know nothing about it. SYCL is just a wrapper for other low level APIs its not a solution in itself. SYCL is most commonly a wrapper for OpenCL so why would they do that after already removing OpenCL? HIP is Linux only and it doesn't support RDNA2 GPUs. Metal is MacOS only. The funny thing is they deliberately neglected to mention Vulkan, the one API they claimed Blender would support after AMD joined their fund. After receiving all that money from AMD they have no real plan to support AMD GPUs.


survivorr123_

they have mentioned vulkan, atleast they want to rewrite eevee for it.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DevGamerLB

Sorry but you said some things that just aren't correct. First, no matter the situation Blender has been gladly recieving over $139,000 a year from AMD for over two years now. In all that time they should have invested that money in being ready to support AMD GPUs in the new Cycles/Blender. Second, their are several APIs Blender could've been using to support AMDGPUs including: - OpenCL: they should have never ended support, OpenCL runs very fast in Blender with RDNA2 and it can even access hardware raytracing (yet they never used it). Blender's reasons for removal are unsubstantial and they likely did it at the request of Nvidia. - Vulkano: Vulkano API is a fast, hardware vender independent, easy to use Vulkan wrapper API which will run GPU kernels similar to how Optix runs CUDA C kernels. Its built on Vulkan compute, its open source and it has a 2.8k star rating on github. Thats nearly as high a rating as Blender itself. https://vulkano.rs/ - Radeon Rays 4.0: RRays API is an ultra optimized ray intersection acceleration API created by AMD in Vulkan and DX12. Its Litterally designed to be used to build a renderer out of. Its basically AMDs equivalent to Optix. https://gpuopen.com/radeon-rays/ All these solutions have been out for years so if Blender was looking to keep their word instead of squirming and colluding for Nvidia's money they could be using any of these. Also, HIP is awsome for the enterprise and its faster than CUDA. HIP is not written in CUDA,..AMD coded HIP and HCC from scratch but made it fully compatible with CUDA to set customers free from Nvidias vender code trap and give them a better choice. HIP is meant for the enterprise/server GPUs, so is ROCm. That is what it was created for so its not meant for RDNA2 unfortunately. Also, Nvidia GPUs do not make up the vast majority of the hardware in use. If you follow the sales data closely you would notice that over 30% of Nvidia sales are for mining only. So the sales of actual consumer grade GPUs used for gaming or work are closer to 45/55 even durning the chip shortage. That is hardly a vast majority.


survivorr123_

even Unity uses Radeon Rays to bake global illumination, it's pretty fast and more stable than any blender version using cycles + opencl (even tho it's still experimental)


ABotelho23

Yikes!


die-microcrap-die

I wonder if AMD has any legal standing and sue the shit out of them.


LavenderDay3544

They likely don't and that would make them look really bad. No other OSS project would ever work with them again even if their money donated to Blender was a waste in this case. They just need to cut off funding to Blender.


die-microcrap-die

Even though i agree with your points, if they did sue based on solid legal footing ( i am not a lawyer) and the other projects dared in saying anything negative after this, then they would be as bad as the blender group. That said, i looked at one of the links here and i hate to say it, but blender does have a point since opencl looks like is not moving forward and blender group said they reached out to amd and intel to try to find a proper alternative. It does suck that after receiving money from amd they havent show much progress with their hardware. Worse case, blender should return the money back to amd and let them do their own development.


Praxxah

I'm charlatan when it comes to GPU programming, but it seems like someone is already making an effort: https://developer.blender.org/D12578


DevGamerLB

Blender should be making this a major effort and it should have been redy for the new Cycles X. HIP is an enterprise solution so its not compatible with the RDNA2 GPUs, neither does it run in Windows or support hardware accelerated raytracing.


Praxxah

Well that sucks, could this have been avoidable if they actually went for Vulkan


DevGamerLB

Yes, totally. Thats actually what Blender claimed AMDs donation money would be used for yet two years later and no vulkan support.


ThePiklOfTime

I mean the merge request for amd GPU support is there, and might even make it to 3.0. if not it'll be there in 3.1. Don't blame the Devs when they are implementing features that I don't even believe there are on the windows drivers that "might be there for the 3.0 release". If AMD GPU support isn't there for the 3.0 launch, you can still use 2.93 lts. Also it's mostly amd Devs that are working on it, so I'd say they're on board with what they are doing. Please stop forcing something that isn't a controversial into a controversy. Thank you. Edit: I copied this from a another comment, that I made in another sub on the same topic


DevGamerLB

That merge request is for AMD HIP support which doesn't work on any of AMDs new GPUs including all RDNA/RDNA2 GPUs. Its a joke.


ThePiklOfTime

It will actually work on them in the future I believe. The drivers enabling support are coming before 3.0 full launch if AMD is to be believed I believe


DevGamerLB

AMD has no announced plans to bring HIP to RDNA.


axelaxolotl

thats a bit clickbaity, they are working on amd support and cycles x isnt even out yet its in beta. also giving blender money gives you exactly 0 influence over the project which is why its misleading saying they "deal" with adobe. they removed open cl support because the whole thing was unstable and didnt work great, and funnily enough thats not the case for the code nvidia provides. also would be a waste when amd always advertises their own render engine amd prorender that has native support for nearly all cycles nodes. obviously its not as good, but the option always exists and when amd wants to go that way its their choice. i dont think the next few versions will not include amd support and they definetly wont completely forget about amd and the biggest evidence would be that there already are projects/branches trying to add exactly that


Tsutarja495

This. I don't know if any of you have ever used OpenCL on the Cycles rendering engine, but I have (RX 5600 XT user here), and I can confidently say that it is unstable garbage. More than half the time my renders don't even start and I'm better off rendering on the CPU. ProRender is a decent stopgap while I wait for proper AMD support in Cycles.


axelaxolotl

I used a Vega 56 and it was horrible. It was 10 times better in amd prorender


BlobTheOriginal

If amd isn't happy with the results then they can always pull funding and divert it somewhere else e.g. Nuke


Zipdox

What are you talking about, blender supports OpenCL.


DevGamerLB

All future Blender versions will no longer support OpenCL.


Zipdox

Bruuuuhhhh


Blox64_120

bruh what the hell


Sinomsinom

I think in their Cycles X release they also said they plan on adding AMD support but it won't be ready for the first release of Cycles X, but yeah it's annoying that they release a full version without support for AMD GPUS.


EviTRea

If I remember correctly, Nvidia got better support because the send 2 engineers to contribute the source code. If AMD also contribute a lot to the source code, I don't see a reason why Blender would reject those PR if they exist. Also, AMD already has its own renderer (Prorender). It's not like Blender won't function without the fundation, you can always fork that and make your own version as long as following GPL3 license. I'm not here to shit on AMD, but being an AMD fan, you should have had a better idea how things work in FOSS world works. You want it, you do it. Legally they only have the trademark.


voodoo-sli

Prorender sucks


EviTRea

Yap that's my point, if AMD cares enough, they don't even need cycles, just don't have Prorender crash so often Open source is great, but open source doesn't guarantee people will figure out shit for you