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LoudPhone9782

All she needed to do was go to a universe where the Wanda there just died after curing the world population from turning into kronenberg monsters and then bury the body in the backyard and then assume her identity.


thedaveness

With a situation of infinite possibilities there was definitely one she could have took over where her alternate self died, but can you imagine how much that would fuck the kids up? Dead moms back baby!


brentaltm

In the comics they’re pretty used to it lol


HC_UIM_Chris

Just have her pop in moments after her counterparts death. No one else needed to know 🤫


djseifer

"Hi, I'm Landfill's brother, Gil. But you can call me Landfill in his honor."


uhnoinenoine

What's a ZJ?


DrGirthinstein

If you have to ask, you can’t afford it.


LeDirtBagger

If you don't know you can't afford it


Spaceman-Spiff

Eh, getting her kids back was the pretext. She was corrupted and wanted the power. Plus she said she wanted to be able to travel to different universes to protect her kids if any unforeseen event happened.


Fire_And_Blood_7

Wasn’t there a line of hers where she said she could rule the entire Multiverse (exactly what Wong said was prophesied)?


djml9

She said she could, but that she didnt want to


bhavish2023

Ruling the multiverse? *kang has entered the chat*


Manifoldgodhead

Yep, she didn't just want any kids, she wanted those in particular. There are infinite kids, but they're all a little different. Those were probably the ones closest to the ones she made for herself.


AnOnlineHandle

The fact that she stopped when her kids rejected her showed at least that she wasn't just about the power and hurting, like Thanos was started announcing how much he was going to enjoy torturing the earth and how he'd wipe away that universe once his pretext for violence and power turned out to be pointless as he probably always knew it to be.


The_Careb

I mean…she could just erase their memories of that. But it would’ve eventually end up them realizing it because something goes wrong or something brings back the memories and they feel betrayed OR thankful they got a second chance with a mom who loved them. I don’t think it mattered, the Darkhold had done it’s damage


DGSmith2

I know it’s pedantic but she couldn’t fight other Scarlet Witches as there can only be one at any time.


sephelutis

Billy is a psychic himself and he’d find out sooner or later lol


heroinsteve

I mean we didn't really get to the point of her choosing a universe to be with her boys, cause she never did get the power. Maybe she would have fought a couple scarlet witches, scarred a few of the kids for life before giving up and finding a universe where she's already dead and has the kids.


jramos037

Let's not forget her corruption by the Darkhold greatly affects her actions. Like yes, she could have asked America Chavez to open up a portal in a friendly manner but it was the Darkhold that was controlling and influencing her decisions. And I'm willing to bet the Darkhold don't really care about her children.


heroinsteve

True. She could have simply helped her control her powers and in exchange gotten sent to a universe of her choosing, unknowingly likely causing an incursion over time of my memory of how that works is correct.


Qant00AT

Though remember why she said she needed the power for herself. An infinite amount of universe to solve an infinite amount of problems regarding the boys. Tommy’s got cancer? Hop to a universe where cancer is cured and so on and so forth.


GamerOverkill03

Yeah, I feel like people just didn’t recognize the fact that Wanda was clearly off the deep end and that as soon as she got America’s powers, was probably going to immediately fulfill the Scarlet Witch prophecy. Her actions aren’t logical because it’s a loose justification for her decaying mind being driven towards its dark destiny.


peeforPanchetta

Nah, it's all implied. Thing is, a lot of people didn't watch Wandavision, and some % probably don't remember it all that well considering we've had quite a bit of content since. Even I would have preferred if they'd taken the time to flesh it out a bit more instead of straight Fury Road-ing through the rest of the movie. Even if it was stuff like Wong talking to her while trying to magic his way out of being captured or something similar.


JustSayan93

She also explicitly said she needs her powers to keep the boys safe. That their is a cure for every illness in the multiverse if something were to happen. Obviously it was the dark holds way of reasoning to Wanda why to kill a child.


BigBlakGaming

This. People act like it isn't always at this point Wanda+Darkhold


a4techkeyboard

>!She did say specifically why she wasn't content with something like that, why she wanted the power not just the trip to the right universe. She was thinking what if they get sick, she needs to be able to find somewhere with the cure in case the universe they're in doesn't have it. What she probably left unsaid was she needs to know she has access to spares.!<


amumumyspiritanimal

The point the movie made was that she's just unhinged and corrupted by near infinite power and trauma. They showed how the book was the true evil, because whoever got near was corrupted by it. Agatha was probably a pretty nice lady before the Darkhold too.


TheHunterZolomon

Maybe she will become nice without it?


Xygnux

I hope that's what the Agatha show will address. Wanda destroying all the Darkhold reduced its damage on all its former victims. So Agatha became this more gray character from the comics.


a4techkeyboard

I don't know, maybe that was *a* point. But the movie also makes a point that the people corrupted by power still bear personal responsibility for what do and have done and that blaming it on something else is like the Darkhold is not what one should take away from it. Strange and Wanda both try to say no to it eventually just like they both have to say yes to using it in the first place. The book was the "true evil" maybe in the same way a straw in a milkshake is the true cause of weight gain. She is unhinged and irrational, the book isn't what did that though. She was grieving. She was in denial, she was angry, she was depressed, and bargaining. Her powers and access to the book just took her a very long way from acceptance. Usually when people grieve and try to make deals with a high power, they... can't actually expect it to happen. The book was preventing her from giving up on what ifs, and it made her spiral and get greedy with the what ifs. If she succeeds, what if something else happens. She'll need more. She can't lose them again. It gave her ellipses instead of full-stops. It didn't take away her agency and responsibility, it gave her *more* agency. She could do more things. It's actually the same point as Spider-man's "great power comes with great responsibility." The point of the book isn't that it takes all the blame. And Agatha had her good intentions before she got the book, too. It's corruption, sure, but we don't blame money when a rich person thinks they can buy their way out of everything. If anything, the idea that you can just blame the book is one of the ways wielding the Darkhold lets someone rationalize how it's not their fault. It's kind of a metaphor for addiction as well, I suppose, as power or money. None of those really strips away personal responsibility. And the movie does try to show that. Edit: Also, she didn't have the Darkhold for most of Wandavision. And someone replied about the straw not being the same because the Darkhold is inherently evil but I can't find it. Said straw was inherently in a milkshake.


attentionspanissues

Going back and rewatching Avengers Age of Ultron she was pretty evil... yes she changes her mind but the darkness has always been there


Briaria

Wanda enslaved a town to play house with her long before knowing about the Darkhold


LawyerCowboy

But her mere presence would cause the universe’s to collide and eventual destruction


avelak

Yeah they pretty clearly established that there are major issues associated with staying in a universe you don't belong in


laraere

Unless you have the Watcher's seal of approval. Or did the Watcher doomed the universe she sent the Ultronverse Widow to?


avelak

Fair, I don't know haha


Citizen_Kong

He probably knows how to hop between universes without causing an incursion. Maybe the trick is not going directly but taking the route via Watcher's "backdoor" dimension.


LawyerCowboy

Which I’m very happy about. Adds some stakes to multiversal travel


BizzarroJoJo

Yeah it was a good call. I think Rick and Morty have shown how having infinite universes that can freely interact trivializes a lot and can also make things get weird very quickly.


JCamson04

*Peter 2 and 3 being in Peter 1’s universe, along with the villains* Earth 616: eh its chill


avelak

To be fair I think those were temporary visits, not a permanent stay


djml9

Maybe i misunderstood, but i thought it was the dreamwalking that causes incursions, not actually being a different universe.


SuiXi3D

I don't know how I would handle an MCU movie written by Dan Harmon, but I'd love to see it regardless.


brainwrinkled

Six seasons of moon knight and a movie? Pls


ReflexImprov

Considering the screenwriter was a writer on Rick and Morty, that might be a little too on the nose.


Agorbs

shocked how far I had to scroll to find someone catching the reference


ReflexImprov

That episode of Rick and Morty was one of the most profound things I've ever seen from a cartoon.


vonbryan

I'm glad they went the way they did with Wanda in MoM cause Olsen acted the hell out of this movie. I'm not overly crazy about MoM but this was the best acting I've seen her in.


TA3153356811

Yeah seriously. I LOVED her being the antagonist. I don't want her to be dead because I feel like her death just wasn't... Powerful or momentous enough. But maybe that's just a mistake of the movie or my opinion cause it was the right time/reason


Citizensssnips

There's no way she's dead. I'd say that burst of red was her teleporting herself somewhere else. You can now do a series about Wanda deciding who and what she wants to be going forward. She's a murderer and a monster now but someone like her can still save the world. She's basically the MCU's magneto now, which is kind of ironic.


Kawaiiomnitron

I think this was an intentional choice despite it potentially confusing people who thought she was healing after Wandavision, because Scarlet Witch as a character is meant to be complex and someone capable of doing really good AND really bad. Her previous feats weren’t the worst things on the planet compared to other villains so this seems to be their attempt to make it clear that she is indeed a villainous character who can be equally heroic.


PorkrindsMcSnacky

I don’t understand why people assumed she was healing and bettering herself after Wandavision when the last episode literally showed her using the Darkhold to look for her boys in other universes.


redsyrinx2112

Right?! It was because of the Darkhold that >!people theorized she could be the villain in MoM.!<


khajiithassweetroll

Imo, after WandaVision she healed over the death of Vis, but in the process created new wounds from losing the boys as quickly as she got them. She got a little taste of what being a mother would be like and it all got taken away.


EpsilonX

I think a lot of people just didn't get what was going on in that scene.


bloodoftheseven

She was using the darkhold to understand her powers but it showed her how she could get her boys as well.


magpye1983

Agreed. I expect the assumption was that Wanda would be able to resist the Darkhold’s influence, and would not be an antagonist, but would achieve the same goal as she had in MoM, but through more neutral/good means. She **may** be powerful enough to overcome the influence, *after she decides she is being influenced*, but for a long while she honestly believed she was doing the right thing and people were making her escalate.


Bardmedicine

Yes! I keep thinking, "Did these people not watch the last scene of WandaVision?" They couldn't have made it clearer if they said, "Wanda will return as Scarlet Witch... P.S. That means she is a villain"


PorkrindsMcSnacky

To be fair, I didn’t think that she’d necessarily be the main villain. I wondered if perhaps she would maybe start off helping Dr. Strange then change her mind/betray him, or that she would team up with someone else (I figured Mordo since I saw him in the trailers). Regardless, I figured she’d be up to no good in the film.


Bardmedicine

I was surprised by that, too. I thought the big bad would be revealed and Wanda would snap out of it, at least enough to work with Strange. I am very satisfied with this route, too. When she comes back, she can basically play Magneto's role.


Anonymous19373

Just because she CAN doesn't mean she should. She's already caused irreperable damage in her failed quest to get her kids back, and she knew there was no going back before she died.


Nateus

I want to see a Scarlet Witch goes to Hell movie. She can kick Mephisto’s ass and get a version of her kids. Of course that will only bleed into another movie, and another, and another…..


Linator4

Honestly I almost thought we were going in a similar direction when Chavez opened a portal to that fiery hell-ish dimension. Like I didn’t buy into the Mephisto rumors with this movie like I did during WandaVision, but in that particular scene I was almost convinced they were gonna go all in on her villainy by banishing her to purgatory, having her meet the literal devil, then bring her back as an Avengers-level big bad all while the Darkhold is possibly still corrupting her. That would’ve been terrifying.


HaloLord

Rule number 1 of comics, unless you see a body- they ain’t dead!


Jertimmer

And even then...


Bardmedicine

... they're only dead for xxx seasons/episodes.


Worthyness

I figure if they want to use her again, there's an entire multiverse to choose from. But if they want 616 Wanda, then they can say she sealed herself in the remains of Mount Wundergore and there's a side quest to break the seal when needed.


Welsh_Pirate

It's my theory that after Fox bungled the Phoenix Saga twice, Feige has decided that instead of risking audiences being hesitant to give it another shot, he's adapted the same basic story for Wanda instead. They retconned her encounter with the Mind Stone from "gave her powers" to "amplified existing powers", so narratively it's similar to the solar flair that made Jean Grey in to the Phoenix. She witnesses the death of a loved one (Vision instead of Cyclops) which sends her down a dark path and takes on a new personae (Scarlet Witch instead of Dark Phoenix) and becomes an outright villain. Then she sees the error of her ways and redeems herself by sacrificing her life. And they've already planted seeds for the being who was unduly influencing her (Chthon instead of the Phoenix Force).


Citizensssnips

I definitely agree there's similar story beats between the Phoenix saga and what they're doing with wanda.


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Hornimans

It should be easier to let it go since she was corrupted by the darkhold + sad story. I mean people sympathize with Loki and he's a mass murderer that wanted to enslave earth and he wasn't under corruption of any demonic book or had a sad story about losing Odin, Frigga or Thor or any loved ones. He did the things that he did because he wanted to have a "glorious purpose" and basically just cared about himself almost up to the end of his life... And yet he is still popular and we got a series about him just after he did a lot of fucked up shit in new york. Cleaning up Wanda in a new series or movie should be easier. Amp up the sad tragic life/series of events, put emphasis on demonic book corruption and show her crying, traumatized by her own actions full of regret and you got a sympathetic character again. Loki didn't even do a third of that and still people ate it up and I say that as a Loki fan lol.


thesanmich

You're 100% right. The darkhold will definitely be emphasized as a big reason for her actions. I want Wanda back, but I definitely don't want them to backpedal that it was still her doing all that shit.


MagusVulpes

Adding to that, forever after her finger tips retain the black from her use of black magic, and have her pause and just stare at them wherever she's at a crossroads. It'll work as a reminder of what she's capable of, as well as what she must rise above.


TastyLaksa

Heck i was rooting for her even when she was killing


davwad2

That was an Other Wanda possessed by 616 Wanda. Explaining this to the authorities will be another matter entirely. I guess that universe's Christine can testify on her behalf?


andrewjpf

I believe other Mordo was still alive too and fully aware of everything going on.


Meizas

So is Loki, and we're all still fans of him and his redemption arc(s)


LOCKHARTX7

She wasn’t herself. She was possessed by the darkhold. I’m sure she will have karma but her story is TRAGIC. For all we know someone will reverse her deeds the way the story is so versatile at this point


Citizensssnips

A future threat will arise and our heroes will be outgunned. Wanda will show up in an attempt to recompense her sins.


therealgerrygergich

I know, right? How could they make a series that sympathizes with a mass murderer who nearly tried to kill most of our favorite heroes? Anyways, I'm really excited for Loki 2 coming out next year. /s


Wide-Brush-2162

I mean, you very much still can empathize with her. I mean she didn't kill any regular people and the illuminati? Eh they're variations. Wanda still cool af and that carries it


[deleted]

still waiting for that reverse house of M


BlackWidow1414

The "death" was very anticlimactic. I think she's still alive. Also, rumor has it Olsen has just signed a contract for more movies/shows, sooo...


Smrtguy85

Also, Vision is still out there. No way are they bringing Vision back from the dead just to kill Wanda off.


djseifer

No body, no death. Them's the rules.


Rubyweb91

Yess she absolutely served!!


CondescendingTracy

You could tell she was having fun in this one too. Reveling in her finally being a proper villain.


Shikaria1996

If this is the best acting you've seen her in I can't recommend Martha Marcy May Marlene enough. It is brutal and unrelenting in its depiction of PTSD. I know people say "this actor should have won an Oscar" but my god, Olsen in MMMM is something else


BrewerySpectacles

Thanks for the recommendation, I have an ever growing list and I had never heard of this one. Excited to watch it soon!


AfterDinnerSpeaker

The add on, Wind River is also a very good movie.


pje1128

Elizabeth Olsen's always been good, but after WV and MoM, I honestly think she's one of the best actors in the MCU. She's so great!


Vis-hoka

She is easily the best part of this film. I wish it was just a scarlet witch movie.


TheAerial

Kind of agree there. You could really feel sometimes where Strange could have used some some more emphasis but lacked it in comparison. Illuminati was a good example. We see Wanda 1 by 1 have this insane, super cool battle, tearing down the illuminati showing the full force and range of her abilities. Next we got Strange vs Mordo. Doctor Strange versus the Sorcerer Supreme from another universe. That should be an absolutely INSANE matchup right there. But instead there literally wasn’t a lick of magic used and Strange parkours his way out of a pit lol as they rushed out of that encounter to get back to the cat and mouse chase. I absolutely loved how they used Wanda and never hesitated to show off the full capabilities of her abilities but that never really felt like a luxury afforded to Strange as well.


TraptNSuit

Waiting for this to show up on movie details, but that fight with Mordo was the same choreography as their sparring in the original. Instead of his magic rope thing, strange had the cuffs.


Kronnerm11

Okay but counterpoint: the music fight was sick


Vis-hoka

Yeah that fight was disappointing. How do 2 top tier sorcerers fight? Punching. Lame.


outsidebtw

Agree, I was waiting for Strange to use Mordo's attacks to remove his cuffs and out-spell him w/ cool shit


LuntiX

>I'm glad they went the way they did with Wanda in MoM The moment I saw Wanda in Age of Ultron, I knew we would get to this point eventually, especially with Wandavision. I knew the MCU would have its own version of the House of M and this is close enough. Im very happy they went this route.


qvickslvr

She was amazing in a film called silent house!


Lincolnruin

Agreed. I have very mixed views about this and how they handled Wanda, but Elizabeth Olsen completely elevates this film.


nkantu

All I really went from the MCU at this point are movies that don’t bore me, and this movie was far from boring for me. Does Wanda’s reasoning for turning truly evil make the most sense? No it’s just because Darkhold Was it super compelling to see a character (that Disney has spent millions on marketing as a hero) incinerate and violently kill people? Definitely yes. Maybe I just did a good job of avoiding spoilers and leaks, but I legitimately had no idea Wanda was the main villain. I thought it was Mordo and Darkter Strange


MasqureMan

Without the Darkhold, Wanda would likely have healed from the events of WandaVision and come to terms with herself. But she had a dark magic book at one of her most vulnerable periods, so we got her descent into madness. She was at a crossroads and she chose a path.


zOmgFishes

I don’t understand why people don’t see that. She understood her actions in WV and went to exile but with the Darkhold to hone her powers more. The DH very likely influenced her at her mentally weakest point by showing her visions of her children which was in the post-credit scene of WV. While Wanda’s decisions are her own they are very likely twisted and corrupted by the DH to take it to the extreme. Just like how one Strange wanted to see a universe where he was happy but ended up turning into a murderous psycho because he realized he will never be happy with Christine. You can even infer that the DH corrupted the 838 strange to and extent which caused him to dreamwalk through so many universes despite never finding the solution he wanted (even when there was another one way) and eventually cause an incursion. It seems the DH influences people by NEVER showing them what they wish to have and throwing users deeper into despair and into the book.


BizzarroJoJo

But she also flew off with a powerful magic book that everyone told her was evil. In most stories when the person who just held a town hostage and tortured them then escapes with an evil book, you call that person the villain. Honestly, I just think WandaVision should have been more real about what the fuck she did and that she was in fact a villain at this point. It wasn't Agatha who tricked her to do that or something, it was *all her*. The show itself really tried to handwave away how terrible what she did was, and give her this awful happy ending, go into exile thing. Having said all that. I hope she isn't dead, and I actually hope we see her return someday and get a legit heroic redeption arc. I mean if Loki got one then she can.


bloodoftheseven

Going into exile is not happy lol.


BizzarroJoJo

> She was at a crossroads and she chose a path. But it isn't like it wasn't a path she chose before without the darkhold's effects either. After losing Vision she took a town hostage and basically tortured them just for her own personal fantasy. That's like 100% villain behavior. She didn't have the affect of the darkhold then. She is also told the Darkhold is this evil book and still seeks power from it. IMO Marvel actually did a good job of building her up as a villain, and I know some people don't like that idea. They wanted redemption for her, but I honestly think it'd have been terrible if she had just got off scott free after the events of Wanda Vision. I think pushing her to be a villain was the natural route to go after that.


Xygnux

And let's not forget that, the first time we saw her, she joined a terrorist cell trying to get superpowers to kill Tony Stark in revenge for her parents. So she was always flip-flopping between choosing what is the difficult but right path, and the path to overreact and use evil to get want she wants.


cricket9818

Same. I only watched the trailer twice and avoided spoilers. I 100% expected a strange variant or mordo to be the villain. I didn’t expect Wanda but it made perfect sense and it was fucking awesome


Flavax13

After Infinity War I started to watch only the first 1 or 2 trailers like 1-2 times, and the Cinema experience is just sooo much better, they leak the movies really hard with the trailers and especially the clips.


TheRealClose

Or just watch none. It’s bliss.


Jroks2

Yup - I do everything in my power to avoid spoilers and trailers and it makes the whole experience so much better. Had no idea that it was widely known Prof X was making an appearance. Shit blew my mind (among many other parts)


N3rdLink

I tried to avoid all leaks. Had no idea Wanda was the villain. Didn’t love the choice but I liked the movie overall


Fire_And_Blood_7

I’ve said it too others who disagree, this movie was so out of the box for marvel. It just did not follow the same formula that every Marvel movie has. And it gave bits of fan service without making the whole movie fan service (cough cough, No Way Home nostalgia train). I’ve legitimately checked out of Marvel since End Game, and really the only Marvel movie I can go back and watch repeatedly is Ragnorak. The rest are legitimately all the same thing (minus Eternals, which I actually liked for the exact reason that it was different than the rest). And all the Marvel movies seem like they should be rated PG not PG-13. This movie really sparked my interest again. It did something *completely* different. I really don’t care that the climax was a cheesy one liner of “believe in yourself,” because the rest of the movie was so damn intense, shocking, crazy, and cinematically beautiful (which other Marvel movies are too). I was actually jaw dropped multiple times during the movie. I have never had my jaw drop in Marvel. I even expected the snap in Infinity War, that’s how predictable Marvel movies are. They literally have done nothing like this, and it was unpredictable and kept me on the edge of my seat the entire time. Because of that this actually sits as my favorite Marvel movie. Would I have enjoyed maybe 30 more screen time in other universes? Sure, but I’m sure we’ll get more of that in the future. Sam Raimi killed this, it was incredible.


OwnPack431

Wanda's scenes and the special effects were absolutely INSANE! I also enjoyed how different it was and had a bit of a horror feel to it. "Fans" complain when they follow the same formula and they complain when they try something completely different. They complain when each movie is a "world-ending" event and they complain when it it's not leading up to another "big bad". Marvel just can't please every crybaby nerd. I'm excited for where they take the multiverse and finding out who the next big bad is.


JakeHassle

I agree about the direction and visuals. The fact that it was more brutal and had horror vibes was awesome. Sam Raimi’s creativity was just amazing. But I thought the story was weak. I actually didn’t find it all that unique either. I appreciated the fact they let Wanda become a full on villain, but they could’ve shown that development more.


weirdogirl144

The trailer did a good job I really thought that Wanda and strange would team up but it’s the complete opposite


allhailgeek

I don't get the hate. The movie shows that >!two other Strange's were corrupted by the book as well so it wasn't like she was being singled out as weak. I see her actions as the corruption from the book and not her being evil. She was alone with this soul corrupting book for weeks/months!<.


Vis-hoka

>!She was already making selfish decisions before the book. Wanda vision was entirely about her enslaving an entire town to play out her family fantasy. Hard to come back from that.!<


MasqureMan

You forget to mention she had deluded herself into not realizing she was enslaving them. She has blame for sure, but she was also a victim of her own powers


Fire_And_Blood_7

I agree with your point, but she eventually realized it and continued to do it. She’s what happens when you have that much trauma and mental instability.


LeftenantScullbaggs

She literally stopped within the same day she realized it.


Fire_And_Blood_7

Uh, you don’t think she realized it when she yeeted Monica out of Westview? She fully realized it then, she was just justifying it to herself.


Kawaiiomnitron

People keep saying this but I fail to see how you got that from WandaVision. It is made very clear that Wanda does not fully understand the origin of the Hex until Agatha explains it to her. Trauma and mental repression is a powerful concoction. It is not hard to believe that she was so mentally gone that she refused to let go of the fantasy. She even said it herself, she didn’t know how it happened or why but she knew she was happy and she wasn’t happy for a long time. If she was truly as evil as she was in this movie all along, she would have NEVER let the hex go. She would have double downed and used the Darkhold to rule the universe per prophecy so she could have her way. The moment she realized how the hex was created and what it was doing to people, she brought it down. Nobody forced her to, it was her choice. The argument that she made the hex selfishly of her own volition makes no sense because prior to WandaVision, she only knew telekinesis and telepathy. It was created through a mental breakdown that sought to make her happy no matter the cost.


scatterbrain-d

Yes. It's wild to me that people walked away from this show thinking she was purposefully torturing everyone the whole time. The show speaks strongly about the way people can live so deeply in denial that they don't ever see the consequences of their actions, and in doing so they hurt themselves. I don't think her role in MoM was done badly, but I do wish they had gone another way with it. WV made Wanda one of my favorite MCU characters and I didn't want to see her go this way.


dzak92

Yes Wanda is a good person at heart that’s why she removed the hex at Westview, but the post credit scene shows her reading the darkhold which is when her corruption begins. It wasn’t until she saw how much “her kids” feared her was she able to break free from the influence of the darkhold


Calf_

>She even said it herself, she didn’t know how it happened or why but she knew she was happy and she wasn’t happy for a long time. She was also openly hostile to anyone who questioned the Hex or sought to destroy it (Vision, Monica, SWORD). Sure, she created it by accident but even once she realized what she did/was doing it took a lot of convincing to make her take it down.


SimonShepherd

People likes to villainize Wanda and offer the worst media interpretation lol, that's kinda her thing.


therealgerrygergich

I don't think Wanda is unforgivable, but her actions in Wandavision are pretty inexcusable. She had some awareness of what she was doing relatively early on, as she left the Hex in Episode 5 and refused to listen to Vision when he told her what she was doing to Norm, even trying to control him in that moment by rolling the credits to end that argument. I think you can make the argument that she thought she was making everyone in Westview happy, but I think even without the torture, the outright mind control on its own is a huge violation of agency that is pretty terrible. Wanda was definitely in denial, but on some subconscious level, she knew that what she was doing was wrong, but she just couldn't give up the fantasy of her perfect life after everything she'd been through. I don't buy that Wanda is completely innocent, but I don't think that she's full blown evil. But I do think that Wandavision tried to justify her actions way too much, while crucifying characters like Agatha who had done far less evil actions comparatively. We go through the whole finale hearing about how torturous the mind control is, and they still decide that irreversibly mind controlling Agatha, who wasn't even the biggest perpetrator of the Hex, is justified? I really hope that is acknowledged and built upon in the Agatha series that's being planned.


Kronman590

I really hope they dont confirm "oh it was all the book, wandas a good guy", feels like such a copout. She was a greiving mother with immense power to wield and abused it. I think that should be enough.


Shikaria1996

For me it was because we didn't see that transition. I know that doesn't make sense to some but we went from a Wanda who gives up her happiness for the pain of others, to what she does in this movie. It was so jarring that I can't enjoy the film because of that. The movie is missing the first act. Whether that first act comes before she attacks Kama-taj, or whether it comes after that when she tortures the four students, I needed to see that change. It is the worst MCU movie for me, because it doesn't show the change in Wanda. It just does it


Mathi12

WandaVision, WV post-credits, and the start of MoM pretty much show why she's evil: the Darkhold They made a big point through Agatha about how the book is evil and corrupts the user in WV, then she's using it by herself on the post-credits, and fast forward to MoM she's fully corrupted by it. Strange knew that shit hit the fan as soon as he saw the book with her ("Wanda is gone") I agree on the part that the movie felt rushed and the pacing was a mess in some parts, (also trailers mislead us a bit) but I think the corrupted Wanda was pretty much a given from the very beginning.


ResidentCoatSalesman

Corrupted Wanda can work; in fact, I think it would’ve been possible to turn that character totally evil without the use of the Darkhold. But from a storytelling perspective, “evil book turns character evil” is really lazy, especially after the transformation we’ve seen Wanda go through in Wandavision. Yes, it makes sense in canon, but it somewhat invalidates her previous arc.


zhurrick

It's supposed to be a surprise. I really liked it.


bob1689321

The movie needed a longer scene of Strange finding out about the Darkhold, then the scene visiting Wanda should have been longer and had him slowly realise she was already using the evil magic. It just happens too fast especially for people who haven't seen wv


flipdark9511

I saw Wandavision and it was still far too fast. She's literally living in a chaotic hellscape, has already secretly sent a demon to capture a girl with powers she desires, and is fully ready to annihilate Strange if he gets in the way. And that's just all in her introduction scene in the movie. Wanda going off the deep end is fine and all, but that's way too much happening all at once.


goboxey

She was one of the best and realistic villains in the MCU. No bullshitting, but going straight to her goals. Thanos and killmonger did the same and people loved them for being the best villains.


scooterable

This is true, but I didn’t see Thanos or Killmonger sympathetically beforehand. They were always villains. I agree she was an amazing villain. But I don’t love her for being an amazing villain, because I already loved her character before this movie. So it just made me sad instead. Does that make sense?


esar24

Actually I'm happy for once because I can finally see that wanda doing something not for the sake of others anymore, her action now are her own, villain or not.


choff22

Personally, I’ve always viewed her character with cautious attraction because I know what she is capable of and I know her track record from the comics. After that scene in Endgame where she was about to slowly tear Thanos limb from limb, I knew what route they were going.


Fire_And_Blood_7

100% this movie was great. I think people are giving it hate because it broke the same boring Marvel formula. It gave us a no-bullshit villain (and I think people that loved Wanda are upset that she turned evil), it actually utilized the PG-13 rating, it had unpredictable twists and not over the top plot armor (yes sure Dr. Strange, Wong, and America had plot armor but in all other Marvel movies, pretty much everyone lives, and anyones death is made out to be this big dramatic deal), the fight scenes weren’t obscurely overdone and drawn out, the main character had an arch that wasn’t in your face (and he still didn’t get the girl), etc etc, I’m sure there’s more but that’s some. The hate is unjustified IMO.


KikReask

I adored evil Scarlet Witch she was terrifying. Makes me look forward to see Marvel finally do Dark Phoenix justice in like 2029 or something whenever we aren't sick of seeing them drag out that story arc. XD


Exciting-Wash6886

Please no. Dark Phoenix has been done to death now on main screen. There are a hundred other interesting Xmen stories I want to see before thats brought up again. Let it rest.


KryoKurse

I entirely get this, but if Dark Phoenix is the last attempt at adapting that storyline they'd really be leaving off on a loss...


GamerOverkill03

I’d be open to a Dark Phoenix interpretation down the line. If the MCU can make One More Day into one of the best Spiderman movies to date, then I trust them to adapt DP better than Fox ever could’ve.


Awkward_Road_710

No body. No ded.


Imaginary-Fun-80085

Her story here reminds me of Wen Wu's story in Shang Chi. Except we never got to see Cthon but I know he's there. He's looking for a strong enough sorcerer to free him.


[deleted]

That is a good comparison. The goal doesn't justify their actions.


SimonShepherd

Lol, they pacified the ever living out of the Ten Ring while making Wanda extra murderous.(There are more Ten Rings goons who died than actual innocents who died.) Wanda is given way less narrative favor in that regard.


GottaPSoBad

I'd argue it's better even. I had a huge problem with the whole "genius supervillain with knowledge of the supernatural gets Catfished by a demon" plot point. L


Vettepilot

>! While personally I would have rather seen Wanda continue on her path to redemption. My biggest problem with MoM is that it doesn’t address Vision at all. The kids were a by product of her love for Vision. Even in her own world there is a Vision that still lives and no doubt he still lives in a number of other realities. The fact that he just gets an off hand mention a time or two doesn’t do their story the service it deserves. !<


Author-Life-2410

Reposting my already mentioned views on this thread about vision- For all those wondering where was vision in the whole movie whether as a human or a synthezoid I think showing him would negate whole wanda's whole delusion and denial in name of grief, genocide of sorcerers and trying to kidnap the variant wanda's kids because she is in fact stable with Vision and he would never approve of her horrific actions in the name of being a happy mother. Also I headcanon that wanda subconsciously chose a universe where vision is not present because he is the only person who calls on her shit- we already saw that in wandavision how he resisted and demanded answers from her after he noticed something was wrong and she was hiding the whole westview thing from him. She knows that he will definately be disgusted and horrified by her actions because for him trying to kill america, a child for power is crossing that line of morality and villainy. Also I think that the last thing wanda wanted is a *sane* opinion because it would anger her even more because she doesn't want to face reality of her crimes like how she is genociding sorcerers, killing illuminati, kidnapping twins and draining america's- a kid's powers. Being a reality warper she was, it was fitting that she warped and deluded her own mind to justify her crimes in the name of kids(which weren't hers). If vision encountered her, he would try to stop her and would be pretty disgusted by her actions as he was always on side of peace. Vision is ***logic*** whereas wanda is ***emotion*** so she would always try to hide from logic as her actions in this movie doesn't make sense- look how blankly she stared at stephen when he said if you take variant's place what would happen to that mother? her actions in this movie were motivated by whole messed up, toxic, and psychotic *emotions*.


Vettepilot

That’s all well and good if Wanda has total control over everyone in all the universes, but she doesn’t. >!Just because she hopes to avoid Vision doesn’t mean that Vision wants to avoid her. Reed Richards suggests that they don’t have to worry about Scarlet Witch as if they have a plan. A really effective plan would be to call in Vision. For all of the reasons that you said is exactly why Vision should have been in the movie. The fact that he wasn’t or reasons why he isn’t thoroughly explained is a glaring plot hole.!<


sigilofthejonker

>!Vision wouldn’t exist in the 838 universe because the Ultron sentries would imply that Stark was successful and that Ultron didn’t turn into a villain, hence no need for a Vision!<


scatterbrain-d

You're not wrong. The primary reason Vision wasn't in the movie is because he would have shut the whole thing down. But honestly some throwaway line that addressed it still would have felt like BS. They couldn't make it work with him so they just ignored it. It wasn't the only instance of the movie bending believability for the sake of Raimi's vision.


thedaveness

I think she picked that universe simply because there wasn’t a vision there. The robot guards saying “ultron commands you” implies that ultron didn’t go ham and a suit of armor around the would worked. She absolutely was trying to avoid him.


OnceNFutureNick

I figured she picked that universe because that’s where America and Strange were. She needed to dreamwalk in that universe to capture America.


Gyddanar

Yeah, she implies that Wanda's kids are almost a multiversal constant outside of 616. Although this might be the darkhold screwing with her.


Fire_And_Blood_7

I’m going to add to both other commenters defending not having Vision. Her love for her kids trumped her love for Vision (which is normal, most people once they have kids see that as their *everything* - especially mothers). Maybe part one of her plan was get the kids, part two was find a universe in which Vision lived. Because I’m sure in many others he still ended up dying.


laxrulz777

There's no universe in which she's happy and fake Vision is enslaved to her. She found a universe in which she let Vision stay dead and she dealt with it while raising her "magic upped" children herself... Happily... At least that's how interpret it


hotsaucepan89

Im hoping for a second season of Wandavision that clears up the white Vision thing or a standalone movie or something


thetherapeutichotdog

Maybe it can be explained that she knew Vision would have opposed her and she didn’t want to pursue that. Would have been nice if they addressed it at least though.


Vettepilot

I agree that it at least being addressed would have been nice, but I was disappointed that >! a white Vision exists in 616 that has at least some of Visions memories and he never shows up or is mentioned. !<


Imaginary-Fun-80085

Totally agreed. They have us everything except vision.


falsehood

Vision is going to be part of her redemption arc. She can't be the villain and redeemed without taking away from Strange's and America's arcs.


Meizas

My big question is why she never mentions Vision - did the Darkhold corrupt her desire for a family so much that she's focused on losing something she technically never had rather than getting back someone she loved that was real?


MoonlightCrochet

She did bring him up, her anger with Doctor Strange was due to Vision and his death. She has several lines to that effect. But she had accepted his death (that was WandaVision), but her grief over the kids was completely new and fresh. And Vision would have fought her on her methods, therefore rejecting her. She just didn't see that the kids would also reject her. That was the Darkhold mindcontrol over riding her logic and sense.


Bojangles1987

I freaking loved it and she was THE star of the movie. It's not like it came out of nowhere, they set this up. She took the opportunity and used it to create one of the best villains in the MCU. I don't see why she had to be a hero now. I love Wanda too and I want better for her, but sometimes the journey down is just as rewarding, even if it hurts.


GuestNumber_42

Hard agree. I loved the portrayal of her character. I felt that the movie should have been marketted as Wanda-focussed. Not that Strange was not important. It's just how much I felt her character made an impact on me; the pain Wanda went through, throughout her life. (But it's still no excuse for what she did/is doing.) >!I especially love the sequence at Kamar Taj. All the homage to other horror movie characters were really fun to spot, while really enforcing her villainy.!<


[deleted]

i too defend her


MaesterMarwyn

It didn't seem like she was defending her actions at all in that quote, just that she enjoyed the direction the character went and playing the character.


JohnathanDee

MCU fans are learning the same hard lesson that Marvel comics fans had to learn, but we got decades to learn it: Nobody is gaslighting Wanda. Nobody is manipulating her. She's the Nexus Being of Earth 616. She has ALL the agency. She *personifies 616 in the Multiverse*. That's canon. And not new


TheOkComputerGuy

There is a reason Xavier brought up a vote to kill Wanda in the comics, she'd descended from grief into madness. They changed the cause of it from Mephisto's tricks.


Fire_And_Blood_7

They’re also learning the lesson that not every MCU movie will follow the *same exact formula over and over.*


averm27

I loved the movie thought it was fantastic. And she being the villain was amazing


a_phantom_limb

>she’s really not apologizing for anything Yes, a big part of being a villain tends to be not apologizing for your sins. She murdered more people in this movie than most MCU villains ever have. And all to what end? Terrifying two kids that wanted nothing to do with her, I guess. It's also interesting to see Olsen describe Wanda's attitude as an "empowering" and "admirable" type of "confidence," when the movie makes it clear that she's been fundamentally corrupted by the Darkhold. Her judgment on every issue is totally undermined, which doesn't really feel "empowering." When *WandaVision* ended, all of those comments would have made sense to me. But with this film, Wanda is genuinely the Bad Guy - though her mind is too damaged to recognize just how monstrous her actions truly are.


Author-Life-2410

Agreed to your points! Added that after wandavision lizzie said wanda will take accountability for hers actions eventually which didn't happen either


Jereboy216

I really enjoyed the movie, but most people on this sub would anyway. I will say that the turn to villain moment felt like it was missing something. Some kind of story beat to make that moment feel a little more weighty.


31337hacker

She seemed fine after restoring things at the end of WandaVision. I think a scene that showed her getting corrupted by the Darkhold would've helped. Make it creepy, as if the book is whispering to her or promising her *unlimited* power.


Gamma_Tony

Wanda was an amazing Horror movie villain. Unstoppable monster with one murderous and goals and no hesitations to destroy anyone in her way, even other Wandas. Its only when her boys, the goal shes working towards, only see her as the monster does she stop and consider her actions.


Waluigi4President

People can’t blame the darkhold entirely for what Wanda did. Even before she had it she had Hulk kill a ton of innocent people in Age of Ultron, enslaved an entire town and tortured them knowingly and never even apologised for any of it, seeming to only be upset that people think she’s a monster I just find it hard to defend at this point and she killed people she didn’t even need to


Author-Life-2410

I urge everyone to have a healthy discussion on the topic


FictionFantom

She’s just been dragged through the mud over and over again. I don’t blame Wanda for anything. >!Kinda want to see an *eventual* redemption for her though.!<


mikedadbabclocksocks

I think one way to give fans some sense of redemption for Wanda would have been to >! give more screen time to “good” Wanda and involve here more in the story. Although I think the way they did it was better. Having our Wanda simply see she can’t get what she wants instead of a fireball match between them, that would have been corny. I also like how Wanda and Strange both go through the same arc of coming to terms that they can’t be with the person they love, but as foils of one another. Strange learns all Stranges are bad and he tries to be different. Wanda learns she’s the only different Wanda and tries to be the same. Wanda takes the “bad” approach and ends good with her sacrifice. Strange takes the “good” approach and ends bad with his 3rd eye. The bill comes due! !<


Sniperchar31

You don’t blame Wanda for anything? I get she’s been though a lot but she brutally murdered a ton of kids in that movie along with the Illuminati idk if I can really give her a pass on that


MonsoonUbermonkey

>!She read the Darkhold. That means that the Scarlet Witch we see in MoM is practically a different person from the Wanda we see in WandaVision. At the end of WandaVision she tells Monica that this all happened because she doesn't understand her own powers, and that she'll learn about them so that it never happens again, and so it's significant that Agatha had just informed her that there's a book with an entire chapter devoted to the Scarlet Witch and her powers. Wanda clearly reckoned "well, it would be irresponsible not to read this and learn to control my powers, I don't want to accidentally create a Realm of Dread every time my depression flares up" and then that turned out to be a huge mistake. Making the story of Wanda Maximoff enormously tragic, because she was just trying to do the right thing but had no proper guidance. Strange SHOULD have immediately had a conversation with her after the Westview Incident, but instead he assumed she was fine and left her to her own devices, which was just as huge a mistake. We've seen what the Darkhold did to AIDA; and so it's safe to say that what Wanda did under its influence is not her fault.!<


Mathi12

I mean, Strange saw the book and knew that it was over, first thing he said is "Wanda is gone".


MonsoonUbermonkey

>!Fortunately there was enough of her left to realize at the end that what she was doing was wrong!<


therealgerrygergich

I blame Scarlet Witch in this film in the exact same way that I blame Strange in the 4th What If episode. Even though both were corrupted, they still made the choice to turn to corrupting methods to recover someone they loved.


Latham74

Olsen's performance of the script was absolutely fantastic, she deserves all the credit in the world. That said, I totally disagree with the creative direction that was taken with the character. It has been discussed to death, but I'm firmly in the camp that the writers did the character a disservice. I'm honestly not even sure I can think of a way to correct it moving forward (at least for me).


Exciting-Wash6886

Accept the fact she’s a villian now. Marvel has a major villian problem and we finally have a cool, interesting female super villian who rivals Magento.


troubleyoucalldeew

Eh. Where does she go as a villain from here? Her only villain motive has been taken away.


Wordup63

I don’t think the problem was that she was evil, her character is complex and this was borrowing a lot from the House of M storyline where she does some serious atrocities. I like that part of her character. The part that was bothersome was that it was SO sudden. We left WV with her learning from her mistakes but still feeling sad and conflicted, and suddenly we just need to accept her as a murderous psychopath? There was no bridge there and 0 exposition as to how she got there. I keep trying to make myself like the movie more than I did initially but I still can’t get past how rushed that was from Rami.


BetterwithNoodles

Hated what they did to the character. She was a complex character full of empathy, history, guilt and trauma reduced to a mono-purpose villain… very Danaeris in the final suckage that was GoT. I assumed the film would focus on some play between her broken humanity versus Strange’s narcissistic purpose while they were working together and apart to solve a multiverse problem, and instead we got a McGuffin chasing caper with zero actual surprises and lots of sitcom worthy reaction shots. A waste of two great actors and characters.


Kingslayer2779

Yeah this quote doesn’t change my opinion at all. She says she liked the evolution of the character, i didn’t see an evolution at all, it was the same story we’ve told with her character. It was literally just the Wandavision character arc with a different coat of paint. I can’t explain all here but >! Basically the short argument is that she started off unaware/uncaring to the suffering she was causing others, only to snap out of it when she sees firsthand how wrong it is what she’d done.!<


[deleted]

[удалено]


FLRSH

I disagree. She became too much of an arch evil from where she was at the end of WandaVision off screen. We needed to see more of the Dark Hold tainting her morality over time before she was big bad status.


TheAceofHearth

[I just don't like the trope ever since what they did with Daenerys in GoT season finale.](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnstablePoweredWoman)


Kingslayer2779

Its literally the only story they’ve told with Wanda in the MCU. AOU, Civil War, Wandavison, now MOM. The only one she wasn’t that trope was Infinity War.


H015

In fairness, the Daenerys arc was straight-up unintelligible. I still don’t know why she burned down King’s Landing. Wanda’s descent at least makes logical sense. Sure, it’s not great she has no real agency because a book turns her evil without her knowledge… but at least it makes sense.


NotTheGuacamole

Her “turning evil” scene was poorly written and too campy.