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importvita

Best quote from the article: *"Some of the guys who made far less than me bought the $700,000 homes, and the Rolex watches, and the big luxury cars. I used to tell them, "You're crazy, you should be saving your money." They'd just laugh and make jokes about me stashing my money away. But I could see what they were doing. They were throwing away their future. So many of them were living for today and not even stopping for a minute to think about ten years down the road when their playing careers were over and the money stopped pouring in. And by the time they realized what I was telling them was true, it was too late.I can't tell you how many ex-teammates have asked me for money. It's heartbreaking for me to say no, but I do because I warned them. I told them to save."* - Larry Bird


thematicwater

> It's heartbreaking for me to say no, but I do because I warned them. I told them to save. And this is also very important. This is a continuation of that discipline.


gerd50501

can i have a dollar? your not going to give me money. that is not really discipline. if people go broke its on them. they can get jobs regular jobs like the rest of us.


goodstuffcomming

And I'm pretty sure they will never admit it. They will say the spending "was needed". And reasons for them being broke are elsewhere (most often external). Rare are the people with the ability to do some critical self-reflection and admit they were wrong. That is why investing is mostly about psychology and controlling yourself.


Historical_Name_6752

Living Paycheck to paycheck is more of a mind set then it is about income. This proves that. Lifestyle creep is also a real thing.


bb0110

Very much a mindset. If this happens to be your mindset then don’t fight it. Live paycheck to paycheck. However, first take out 20%(or 25,30, etc whatever you can afford) and put it towards retirement investments then the rest is your “paycheck”. Your mind can now spend it all and you don’t have to worry. A good thing to do even if you don’t have a paycheck to paycheck mindset, but crucial for those that do.


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bb0110

> I mean, I think that works for most people who work in careers for 30-40 years. You have to save a lot more when most of your income is earned in a period of 5-10 years (I'm not sure what the average career length for an NBA player is). Yeah my post was for the general public. For a professional player they should be saving 50+% >I think it also takes a lot more discipline for this mindset when you go from making nothing to making 7-figures. This is a bigger issue and something that is extremely tough to get over. You truly need to never see the money or else you may think "oh what's another few percent to spend"....until you spend it all.


JustMy2Centences

I'm fortunate enough to be able to put 20% of my paycheck into retirement, pay my bills and not have to truly worry about money after, but I still don't blow it unless I'm able to spend the rare day out of town with my wife, and that's when the extra money becomes less important than the experience of the time we spend together. Still pack a sandwich for work every day. Discipline and avoiding life style creep is super important once you start getting more funds.


Gseventeen

I've said it before on here - but one of my salesmen deals with an individual that makes 500k/yr and lives paycheck to paycheck. In one of the lowest cost of living areas in the US. Its bonkers.


csyuppie

I can’t imagine how lavish their lifestyle is.


Gseventeen

All the lavish in the world isnt worth the stress knowing its all going away with 1 new boss, 1 downturn, 1 illness, etc that can derail it all literally the following month.


wayoverpaid

The position of fuck you is the most glorious thing. Can I retire tomorrow? Maybe maybe not. But can I take a few years off and not have to worry about paying the bills? Yes. And that means 1:1s with the CEO are very, very low stress. Other than my health and the live of my family, nothing is as good as peace of mind


csyuppie

I’m not saying I think it’s a good idea, it’s just probably very lavish.


Gseventeen

Yup! I knew what you meant. And agree with ya!


CoffeeAndDachshunds

.....how?


ItsCalledDayTwa

Lifestyle creep is really difficult to deal with. It's hard to be disciplined enough to live much more modest than your means.


Known-Name

I agree with this and it’s something I’ve become more acutely aware of after we moved into a wealthier, more upscale town somewhat recently. It often seems that my neighbors all make a lot more money than we do, but it’s hard to tell if that’s actually true or if it’s a matter of them succumbing to lifestyle creep/keeping up with the joneses. I suspect a little of both, but either way it’s sometimes difficult to remember to stay in my lane and do what makes sense for me and my family. So at the very least I can understand the issue for some people, because the temptation is there and easy to give in to.


xt1nct

Have you looked at average incomes for the area? While not 100% accurate in regards to people on your street it should give you an idea what they could be making. There are quite a few affluent areas by me and my household income easily fits in there, however, I still live in blue collar neighborhoods with great schools. People who live there are really suffering from lifestyle creep as I know a few.


Known-Name

Yeah, our household income is above the median family income for the town (according to Wikipedia). So we know we’re not the poorest people, but we also aren’t pulling in doctor or lawyer money. Our neighborhood is in the more affordable side of town, so I do suspect some people are overspending. But others may very well have a lot of extra income.


ButMuhNarrative

They are spending on credit. Let rates climb a bit more. Then the divorces and forced sales and not having money to go skiing that xmas will hit, sure as god created little green apples.


Naturopathy101

Not really, it’s just a choice that many are too short sighted to make wisely.


akhier

After a certain point it is a mindset. Some people are literally just paid so little that after paying rent, if they can pay rent, everything else is a tough decision. However, there is a mindset behind the people who end up living paycheck to paycheck even when they're earning a lot of money. And that mindset is actually really sad. The way it works is that when they receive a windfall, the money doesn't feel real. They're so used to money coming and going in a way that is basically out of their control, they see money in their account as being temporary at best. So they spend it. Got an extra twenty? Time to eat out! Got an extra 20k? Buying some bling! Anything to turn the money into a physical thing they can touch. So when it comes to sports, you tend to have a bunch of guys who used sports to get out of being poor or "middle class" (poor 2.0) and they're shackled with this trauma based mindset. Of course that is going to result in them living the high life without any savings. Easy come easy go, except they don't realize until it is too late that 1) the money flow doesn't last forever, and 2) all the stuff they bought either doesn't hold value like the cars and personalized jewelry or is actually costing them money like the mansion.


WallyMetropolis

I always used to think: is there someone making 10% less than me who isn't literally dying from poverty? Then I can live like them and save 10%.


akhier

A big problem is forced poverty. I barely make enough to cover my expenses, however because of my situation I'm apparently right on the edge of that magical line between receiving food stamps and not. My pay went up a little the year before last and I lost it. That difference meant instead of making more money, I was actually making less because I had to use my own money to buy food. Then this year my rent went up by around $100. Guess who now qualifies for food stamps again? I'm not receiving as much as I did before, but it made the rent increase at least not as devastating on my cash flow. Much of the system right now is designed, whether intentionally or not, to keep the poor on that knife edge between being able to survive and not. This is doubly true for the disabled. That whole nonsense is exactly why I support Universal Basic Income. Stuff like food stamps is a safety net and the problem with that is it doesn't always catch everyone. UBI on the other hand is raising the floor as a whole. Yes, it does mean that billionaires will be receiving UBI, but it also means that we aren't pulling the safety net out from under someone just because they managed to find a job that pays a dollar more an hour. It is also why I support Universal Healthcare as well. The people most likely to need it are also those least likely to have it. Hell, with UHC it makes even more sense to do because we would save so much money. A ton of medical expenses that go unpaid come from the poor, not just because they can't pay, but also because they can't afford to actually get things properly fixed. They show up in the emergency room and get whatever fix they can before the bill comes up and then they bail. Only to end up there again later on for the same reason because it wasn't ever fixed. However it will take a lot of work to get either in place because too many low paying jobs basically depend on people having to work for peanuts. Just consider how different your own job would treat you if they knew every single one of you could on a whim just stop working for them without needing to find another job. So many crimes go unreported because people have to work. Wage theft, harassment, and so much more supported by the fact that the employees can't just drop what they're doing and after reporting it, let the case work its way through the court system.


well_here_I_am

>UBI on the other hand is raising the floor as a whole. It would definitely raise the inflation level as well. The problem with UBI is that it wouldn't really make a difference for most poor people, because most poor people are already receiving de facto UBI via unemployment, disability, social security, food stamps, etc. And I'm not saying that from an ivory tower, I know for a fact that there is a huge class of people who exist just fine without being able to hold down any job for longer than a month or two who are so adept at working the system and pulling levers that they wouldn't be helped by UBI in the slightest because it would all be squandered. Are social safety nets necessary? Absolutely. Are they easy to navigate? No. Do they catch everyone? No. Would UBI catch everyone? Also no. Would UBI make a meaningful difference in lifting people out of poverty? No.


akhier

The point of UBI is to replace those things and make it so that when they earn more money, they don't end up making less money instead because of lost benefits. As benefits are structured right now, they're trapped.


well_here_I_am

>The point of UBI is to replace those things and make it so that when they earn more money But UBI isn't earned money, so how does it not result in immediate devaluation of currency? >they don't end up making less money instead because of lost benefits I agree that there are benefit cliffs that make exiting poverty difficult, but I don't see how UBI would be a good solution without just pissing away money with endless government spending.


akhier

As you already pointed out, they're already getting the money, just through other forms. Does it matter if the money comes on a food stamps card they can only buy groceries with, a voucher for rent, or free health insurance or if it comes as straight cash? Besides, it isn't like the money is being printed just for them. This is money the government already had and is using for this instead of something else (such as the replaced benefits) or what have you.


well_here_I_am

>Does it matter if the money comes on a food stamps card they can only buy groceries with, a voucher for rent, or free health insurance or if it comes as straight cash? Yes, I think it does. Because people argue, and I tend to agree with them, that just cash would primarily go to fund drug and alcohol abuse, and other wasteful spending, where at least food stamps will (in theory), only be spent on food. In reality we know that programs like that are still abused, but just giving people cash would be far worse. >Besides, it isn't like the money is being printed just for them. This is money the government already had and is using for this instead of something else (such as the replaced benefits) or what have you. Ok, but the minute UBI is implemented what keeps any politicians from promising a UBI increase and creating a race to the bottom where the masses continue to demand more and more money? I don't see a way to make it end well. To me personally, UBI is a nice mind exercise, but like communism, could never actually work with devolving into hyper-inflation or totalitarianism.


petit_cochon

For most people it's about income. For wealthy people who do it, definitely a mindset.


Otter592

But what about all the people who work low wage jobs, but buy an $80,000 car on an 8yr loan because they can scrap the payment together? It's not just numbers. Or people like my dad who refuse to buy store brand stuff or eat leftovers, get takeout all the time even though they're swimming in debt. For most people, it's about choices.


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DRedditIT

I spent years in a business where I interacted with many middle class and poor people as part of my job. Hundreds of people came in with cars that cost significantly more than their income and extremely long loans.


ItsCalledDayTwa

I've met many of them. Its not just a narrative.


ElasticSpeakers

You should visit an oil boom town sometime, then - it might open your mind a bit that it isn't just a narrative.


Wise_Woody

Come on down to central Florida if you need proof of this.


UnnamedGoatMan

> $700,000 homes I can only hope lmao


gerd50501

guys made a lot less money back then. $700,000 home was a lot back then. a lot of these guys are just dummies and spend all their money.


Kimbra12

Buying a home and Rolex are good investments though.


xXxEcksEcksEcksxXx

Only if you buy multiple Rolexes in proportion to their market weight.


buffinita

Still happens to this day: fortunately the NBA? recently made a personal finance crash course mandatory for all first year players


Historical_Name_6752

That's pretty cool of them. Changing lives for the better, probably alot of players that don't listen though.


BenSemisch

The NFL does too. My brother made a few practice squads and as part of the Rookie stuff they hammer that into your head.


Clearskies37

We really need this in all high schools as a mandatory class


zacce

FL has mandated it in high schools.


jh62118

Michigan just did too. Can’t believe this wasn’t already a requirement.


abroad_saver

As Charlie Munger reminds us, look at the incentives. Who benefits from a population of financially ignorant, distressed, and desperate people?


Clearskies37

I completely agree, they want a generation hooked on credit cards and payments


jh62118

He’s not wrong


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FMCTandP

Per sub rules and guidelines, comments to r/Bogleheads should be civil and substantive. Making unsubstantiated charges of anti-Semitism is not appropriate.


bassman1805

A lot of people I went to high school with say this about our high school. We had a required personal finance class in our high school. A lot of kids just don't care because it's not real to them yet.


mhchewy

I’m a college prof and try to sneak this stuff into my American Government class. I can usually work in taxes, mortgages, and a little bit of retirement. A three fund portfolio might be a stretch though.


ahampster

If it clicks with even one student it's worth it, kudos!


bobdevnul

Good on you prof. One day in 7th grade math we had a substitute teacher. He did not have a math lesson to teach. Basically he was just there for adult supervision of a room of 13 year olds. What he did was talk about investing in the stock market. That started my interest in stocks, saving, and investing. He did me a great favor. The investing that I did over the next 40-something years allowed me to retire comfortably at 59. I would have preferred to work longer, but the job had turned into suckage.


mhchewy

The nice thing about being a tenured professor is you can really cut back on your work hours for the last few years as long as you show up to teach your classes and turn in your grades. I figure it makes up for the six years in grad school making 13k a year working 60 hours a week.


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mhchewy

I don't plan on totally phoning it in, just dial back on the non teaching part of the job. Right now I have a 12 month appointment but will cut that down to 9 or 10 months when I'm nearing retirement. Most people teach two days a week so even during the contract period it isn't necessarily full time.


TheSingulatarian

When I went to college there was a course in what was basically the Home Economics Department (I forget the actual name of the Department. It was jokingly referred to as getting an Mrs. Degree.) That taught consumer finance. It was generally considered an easy gut course elective. I did learn a few useful things in it.


r2-mew2

We had a 1 credit course for all first year students at college that taught about credit cards and whatnot.


Clearskies37

I would be interested to know what they taught about credit cards? I have heard of some classes saying it’s a great tool to build credit etc. etc. instead of warning of the dangers of carrying a balance.


r2-mew2

It was a very small part of the course that pretty much amounted to a 50 minute lesson with a video or two about the dangers of it. I don't recall ever hearing the benefits of building credit.


Otter592

You'd be shocked at the number of people who don't know credit cards charge interest. The security guard at one of my jobs was saying how he had been working hard to save money, but then realized he was getting charged interest on his credit card and decided to put the money towards paying that down first. This man was easily 40. You could say oh well he's not well educated, then there's my SIL. She has a doctorate degree and her father, husband, and 2 brothers are all physicians. She didn't find out her CCs charged interest until her mid twenties (fortunately she was paying the full balance through auto-pay). So yeah, they could literally just explain interest in that class and help a ton of people haha


emtam

Props to your school. I don't believe mine did (Big 10 school). But now that you bring it up, they sure allowed for those tables where you could get a free tshirt and sign up for a lifetime of credit card debt. How accommodating of them.


[deleted]

Did you have courses that taught math?


rapidpuppy

I'm incredibly skeptical that teaching this in school would influence behavior in a meaningful way. If you look into Behavioral Economics, Nudge Theory, the work of Richard Thaler, people respond more to subtle cues than explicit education on this topic.


Veni_Vidi_Legi

> Nudge Theory If I am recalling correctly, more recent research on this has only shown about 17% of the original effect reported.


Luxtenebris3

People often say this, but it seems doubtful that highschool kids would actually pay attention to this. It isn't like finding this info is difficult. It honestly readily available in today's world.


rariya

I don’t know, I had a 7th grade math teacher that dedicated a class to compounding interest and literally told us “if you remember nothing else from this class remember this: save 10% of every paycheck you ever make and you’ll retire just fine when you’re older.” I’m in my 30s and still remember that (versus virtually nothing else from all my K-12 math classes lol)


ChrisFingaz

Eh I was taught how to write checks and balance a checkbook in grade school. I remember the first half of that because I suddenly had to use it when I got older. It’s the same with contracts, I had one business class in college. The biggest problem is the teachers don’t know personal finance either and neither does the board that would have to approve a book.


[deleted]

EVERYONE, not just kids, selectively learns. I mean it’s pretty impossible to pay attention 100% for 8 hours straight. Ears perk up when they hear an interesting topic. I took accounting in college and barely paid attention, mostly browsed reddit while during that class. Professor mentioned ROTHs one day and I took that shit and ran. It’s probably why I’m here now. If it weren’t for that one off-topic comment, I don’t know if I’d be financially competent.


bobdevnul

It is not difficult to find adequate investing info. That does not mean that everyone who needs it knows that they need to find it. You can't reach them all, but it is worthwhile to try to reach some. It can be life changing. Understanding investing is much more important than years ago when many people had defined benefit pensions. 401Ks, and the similar things, are now the only retirement many people have. People living in poverty isn't good for them or society. Some companies have gone to mandatory 401K contributions and automatic default selection of a target date fund. This seems like a good thing to me.


CCC911

I get that the bogleheads group is not representative of the American or global population. That said, I would have been fascinated in such a class. Didn’t know anything about investing when I was in high school. Thought that when I grew up I’d need to figure out which stocks were good ones and hopefully I pick the right ones. (Lol ) By the time I got to college, I started to discover index funds and understood the basic bogle methodology by the time I finished college. That said I attended a personal finance lecture in college that was taught by a CPA. He was a partner at a middle market NY based CPA firm. This guy told us all about good debt vs bad debt. Car loans are good debt. Student loans are good debt. CC loans are bad debt. Mortgages are good debt. Told us about American funds and other active mutual funds. (For context this was circa 2018, this was not before the widespread availability of index funds) I asked him outright if car loans are still good debt when buying a luxury car or later in life when you have substantial income or assets. He said yes absolutely, and that nobody buys cars in cash. I didn’t bother arguing, but lost a lot of respect for him- like seriously this is what we teach?


Thatssometamorphosis

Nobody buys cars in cash? Lol


Clearskies37

They don’t care about English and math either at that age, but it’s still necessary.


DaemonTargaryen2024

Sorry but that's insane logic: high school kids probably wouldn't pay attention, and the information is available on the internet anyway.


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longshaden

sure, but that condemns the unlucky kids to repeating the financial missteps of their parents, and the cycle never gets broken.


drunktacos

We had a "financial readiness" elective in high school around 2010, and students did not give a flying fuck about it. The area was mostly middle/upper class too, finance is just not on kids radar.


bobdevnul

Yet the seeds were planted that those students will find that they have to give an Eff about in a few years as they try to function as adults.


EVILSANTA777

I 100% agree. And at the same time know it will not help more than a very small percent of people. I took a personal finance class in high school with about 30 others. I still find at least ~10 of them constantly make the same exact comment on social media. "Why didn't they teach us this is school??" Dude I sat next to you in the class where they taught us this, you were just too busy texting.


Clearskies37

Ha too true


SplitLevel17

And how to change a tire, cook a meal, not everyone is learning this stuff at home.


Clearskies37

💯


NKtDpt4x

Some people in power want the public to remain ignorant to line their pockets.


TheSingulatarian

If people aren't desperate for money, how will they be exploitable and be made to put up with deplorable working conditions?


williocheerio33

I somewhat agree, but if you can’t think hard enough to realize you need to save money for the future, school wasn’t the issue. I was taught enough critical thinking skills in school to figure this out myself.


Clearskies37

That’s great, but sadly you are in the minority


williocheerio33

If you got through high school, you should be able to realize you need to save money.


Clearskies37

Do you have kids? I’m looking for ideas on how to teach my kids this


williocheerio33

Don’t just go buy them whatever they want. Be frugal yourself and don’t hide it from them.


longshaden

TLDR: set up an allowance for your kids to teach them about money. Source: when I was little, my parents used an allowance and chore money to make me think about money and savings. Apologies for being long winded. Note, I'm trying to be neutral on parenting advice, and stick purely to how an allowance can be a great teaching framework. I'm going to assume you let your kids have toys, and occasionally give them luxurious snacks above and beyond the usual feeding. I'm going to assume that sometimes this is to reward good behavior, and sometimes this is just to treat them to something nice. Instead of just giving them their favorite toy or treat, give them (or let them earn) a weekly allowance. The $ should be relative to the value of the customary reward or treat you already give them (appropriate for age, responsibility, affordability etc). Cash will make the lessons more tangible than in-game/in-app currency. Them receiving/earning a weekly $ creates the scenario where they get to think all week long about what they are going to spend that $ on. You want them taking an interest in how that allowance gets spent to benefit them. You want them to start tallying up how many candies they can buy a week, or how many comics they can buy in a month, with that allowance. They will inevitably have leftover change, and they will realize they can keep it to spend next week. Once you establish this pattern, you can build upon it to teach all sorts of financial management. They will figure out some concepts like opportunity cost for themselves, even if they don't know the words for them. Again, the allowance isn't meant to punish or reward, but as a way to leverage things you were already going to provide your kids anyway, in a manner that builds a healthy relationship with money.


Clearskies37

Thank you 🙏


bobdevnul

All those NBA players that Larry Bird was discussing graduated high school and many of them college - at least in theory. They clearly did not realize the need to save money. They blew through their millions in salary paycheck-to-paycheck and wound up broke when their short careers ended. At least some personal finance education should be included in K-12 school. People living in poverty isn't good for them or society. No we won't reach all of them. Reaching some is still worthwhile as a social good.


williocheerio33

Larry Bird told them they needed to save money but they didn’t because they were “living in the moment”. They didn’t want to learn in their mid 20’s. Why would they want to learn it in high school?


bobdevnul

Maybe because they were young and impressionable in K-12. The seed could be planted and might work for some of them, and for many of the others who don't go on to insanely high paid, but short careers.


akhier

It sounds like you grew up in a family where the adults knew what to do. That isn't common. Most people don't even know what saving money entails past putting some money in a savings account on occasion. They instead learn that money is easy come, easy go. That any money in their bank account will soon be spent on bills. So when they get a windfall, having it "saved" isn't even something they know about. Instead they spend it because that is how they make it real to themselves. This isn't about thinking hard enough. This is like having someone that has never seen a cow being expected to draw one after being shown a steak. On top of that, the trauma based mindset isn't something you can fix by just telling them how to save. Remember, they inherently don't trust "saving" because their experience is that any money not used, isn't going to be there in the future. Just because you gave some kid a multi million dollar contract isn't going to change that. I feel that pro sports players should not only have mandatory lessons on finances and saving, but also mandatory visits with a therapist to help them work through suddenly having all that money.


steamedfarts

Let’s get real the vast majority of kids won’t pay attention at all. They definitely don’t in math, history, English, all the other subjects so this won’t be any different.


SplitLevel17

The NBA Players Association needs to implement a mandatory investment plan, if they don’t already have one. Dudes are in their 20s…think about that compounding interest.


lavernenoshirley

They have a pension plan that is dependent on the number of years that they play.


emtam

Really? Then Larry was really doing the right thing by not giving former teammates money.


RelishMule

NFL has been doing this for years as part of rookie symposium


nvielbig

Larry recalls telling his former teammates to keep costs low and invest in the total market.


softkake

Larry “Boglehead” Bird


20JeRK14

"They'd just laugh and make jokes about me going all in on VTSAX..."


softkake

I imagine his response to all the loan requests to be in the vein of Michael Scott: “Well well, how the turntables…”


tpc0121

Larry also advised all of his teammates to ditch the avocado toast and make coffee at home


passing_gas

"You have to pull yourself up your own bootstraps" - Larry Bird


RelishMule

"You got to squeeze your own Nike Pumps"


TopoBitters

I like that purple circle of yours 🦍


WorldOnFire83

I had a teacher in high school that taught us about compound growth. I remember plugging humbers into my calculator as he was mid-lecture, amazed at what an annual 6% return looked like just based off my bus-boy/waiter income. It opened my eyes but I missed his point that in order to get those turns, I'd have to invest as opposed to save. Still, the seed was planted and I'm grateful for the lesson because I caught on eventually. I'm amazed at how just one lesson made such a difference. Imagine if the class dedicated a whole semester to personal finance!


RealRobc2582

I've had the opposite problem in life, I've tended to invest so much that I forget to save and then when I got hit with unexpected financial problems I had to take money out of my retirement fund. NEVER DO THAT if you can help it! Now I'm saving and investing thankfully but it was a longer than needed recovery for a lesson I should have already known.


WorldOnFire83

Ah, yes. The balance that is personal finance. Sometimes we all have to learn a tough lesson before we get it right. For me, I kept a lot of cash on the sideline during the 2009-2020 bull run. Had I invested instead I likely could have retired 3-5 years earlier. Sorry to hear about your unexpected problem, but glad to hear you eventually turned it around!


[deleted]

If you took that money out of your Roth you were fine though? Even if it was out of your 401K and had to pay tax penalties, you still let that money compound instead of losing it in inflation so is it really that bad? Genuinely wondering.


RealRobc2582

You gain nothing on money withdrawn from an account.


[deleted]

…as opposed to taking out a loan or using your credit card for your financial hardship? You said you had to take money out for financial hardships you were having so using a credit card or taking out a loan would have been better?


RealRobc2582

Wasn't an option for me. Sorry I'm not going to elaborate on my past financial conditions.


[deleted]

Hope you’re doing well now. Everyone’s situation is different. I would just take out my contributions of my Roth IRA, all the best!


--RandomInternetGuy

ESPN had a really good 30 for 30 titled [Broke](http://www.espn.com/30for30/film/_/page/broke) about former professional athletes


brianmcg321

Count your money Keep it simple Don’t blow it


sir_mrej

Good ole CKD


mg2322

My favorite documentary ever


Crapulent_Moose

If you don’t live below your means no amount of money can save you.


VIARPE

lol thought I was on r/nba until I noticed the lack of homoerotic comments


IAmTheOnlySavage

This article is honestly hard to read. A receipt for disaster? Not a recipe? At one point he says "...he warned them of the consequences of living a modest life."


justanother-eboy

Ben Simmons needs to read this article. I could definitely see him going broke one day


ExpatJundi

I'd love to see an article centered around the athletes that managed their money well.


be_more_constructive

But Larry Bird is also a cautionary tale about being cheap in ways you should not. He had a great career and earned plenty, but he could have lived better (and potentially earned more) if he hadn't had recurring back problems. >During the 1985 offseason, Bird injured his back shoveling crushed rock to create a driveway at his mother's house. At least partially as a result of this, he experienced back problems for the remainder of his career.


LongVND

I don't know, you say "being cheap", but maybe it meant something more to his mom that Larry was doing it himself. You can't reduce every single human action to dollars.


FunkyPete

He could have taken his mother on a really nice, relaxing vacation to hotel in the desert with a great spa for lots of quality time together while someone else shoved gravel. I mean, I hear what you are saying, but there are also actions which potentially risk your entire career that could easily be hired out.


phr3dly

Other things that potentially risk your entire career: * Driving down the road. * Getting out of bed too quickly * Training for playing basketball. * Playing airplane with your kid. * Chopping firewood at your cabin * Making bacon without properly heating the pan Anyone giving grief to someone for shoveling gravel needs a reality check.


LongVND

Can you provide an actuarial table of the risks for each conceivable human activity that involves physical exertion? Man, you can throw your back out getting out of bed or slipping in the shower; it's not like Larry took his mom to play trampoline basketball.


theoriginaldandan

Are you going to crap on Cam Newton being reckless for driving and blame his injury problems on his car crash now?


MidniteMustard

It might have meant something to Larry. I'd get way more satisfaction from personally doing something for my parents than just cutting a check.


akhier

I don't know if he was being cheap or sentimental, but it was being stupid. His career depended on his body being a high performance machine designed to do a few specific actions. Shoveling gravel is not one of them. Someone hired to do it for him would have not only had experience in doing it, but their bodies would have also been built up to handle the work. I'm not saying he should have lived in a bubble and never done anything physical besides train and play. However, heavy physical labor should have been hired out. If the mom wants to be sentimental, he can bring her out for a really nice meal and spend the day with her while the work is being done. Though I don't know her. Maybe she does prefer him out shoveling gravel instead of spending time with her where they can talk and connect.


Thatssometamorphosis

My parents met in his hometown. If you understood where he came from you’d have a little more insight into why he shoveled his mom’s drive. These posts are cracking me up. His entire mentality is shared in this region and it’s the reason I am in this sub today.


akhier

Eh, I can understand some of where he is coming from. However, I also see this in the same way he saw the other players not saving their money. The way I see his actions is as not saving his body. I understand that things aren't that cut and dry though. Humanity rarely is.


Thatssometamorphosis

That’s a valid point. I think in 2022 it’s a little easier to look back at 1985 and say “man, what a dummy,” knowing what we know now about pro-athletics. I’d also like to make the point that the town he grew up in and where he left his family was inhabited and/or frequented by criminals like Al Capone, Dillinger, etc. It continued to be frought with such characters, always has been. Mr. Bird would likely not have felt comfortable just hiring some kid or outfit off the street to shovel his mom’s driveway. I suppose you’ll say “well, should’ve hired security then.” Sure. In southern Indiana in the 1980s. Im just offering that very little insight is happening on the part of the posters saying he was an idiot to take that risk. Delve into his history a bit more, you will probably find it fascinating.


ZealousEar775

Stupid is stupid. You can excuse it all you want... Just like those people making fun of Larry Bird have excuses I am sure.


Thatssometamorphosis

Oh, now it’s stupid in addition to cheap. Someone’s got an incredibly heavy chip on their tiny little shoulder. Sometime when you’re not being deliberately obtuse, look up the history of where he grew up. Then get back to me on whether you’d have done the same for your family regardless. Some people will risk their entire livelihood for their family’s safety. Some people will just leave them to fend for themselves.


ZealousEar775

Chip? I got Larry Bird 5 all time. I love Larry Bird. I also recognize though sometimes you need to spend money to protect against risk. Like for example, taking care of your healthcare. I have an uncle just like Larry Bird. Man can barely move anymore. As for risking their entire likelihood for their families? A ton of NBA players went broke for the same reason. They bought their friends and relatives houses and invested in them to try and life them out of poverty... And it just didn't work. Fancy purchases aren't the main driver of NBA players losing their wealth, it's the fact that they are the only ones in their circle who have wealth. Proper wealth management isn't just about not making the obvious stupid choices. It's about knowing your limits. If you defend Larry Bird's mistakes due to his culture why wouldn't you be equally forgiving to those who tried to pull their family out of a bad situation because of their culture?


Thatssometamorphosis

Continue to ignore my points, I love it when someone shows their inability to converse by constantly needing to be right. That’ll serve you well in life, old buddy old pal. ;)


ZealousEar775

I didn't ignore your point. It's just irrelevant. Like I said. That excuse fits anyone. Those stars losing their money often do so because of the same care and love for family. A bad choice is a bad choice. Like I get you have some creepy intent to claim the "Moral superiority of the rural Midwest" but nobody cares not even most people born in the Midwest like myself. People in the Midwest don't love or respect their families any more or less then people elsewhere.


Thatssometamorphosis

You sound really emotional. I hope your Friday is better. :)


importvita

This is true, he absolutely should have hired that one out. It's a shame how it cut short his career.


phr3dly

Meh. Last year I tore a bicep tendon, which has caused recurring problems. It happened while putting my winter tires on a shelf in my garage. Yes, I could have hired that out. But if we hired *everything* out that might possibly injure us, we'd end up spending our lives in the [Wall-E hoverchairs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw7WAq_GZY8) You've got to live, even if it means you might, possibly, get injured.


username156

But.... You're not a professional athlete.


phr3dly

> But.... You're not a professional athlete. I am a professional programmer. Things that hurt my shoulders, arms, etc.. can certainly impact my ability to work. 6 years ago I broke my elbow. Typing with one hand for 6 weeks definitely impacted my productivity. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't do the fun activity that resulted in the broken elbow.


username156

Lol fair enough. Pretty much exactly the same as an elite athlete.


LongVND

Can you provide for us please a full list of all physical activities that one should or should not partake in based upon the "eliteness" of one's profession?


ZealousEar775

Ask the NBA or any professional sports league. Partly because of how stupid Larry Bird was that is all mandated in contracts as stuff you can't do it you risk voiding your contract.


username156

Damn, easy people. Didn't know if offend so many people good lord. Do what you want. Or don't man, jeez. Wtf


stouset

This is a lame take. You have no idea if that was because he was being cheap or if it was just something he wanted to do. I make plenty of money. Enough to hire a contractor to do anything to my home or to have a mechanic do the work on my car, motorcycle, or bikes. But I *enjoy* doing that work, so I do as much of my home and auto repair and maintenance myself as I have time for.


NTylerWeTrust86

Where my mind went. Can respect Bird for wanting to do it himself BUT there's a big what if in NBA history if he didn't hurt his back. I didn't know what year too so learning it was 85 is so early.


Super-Blackberry19

agreed. when I first joined attempting to learn FIRE, I thought it'd be a waste of money to spend on health bc I'm young and I could probably just home remedy out. no way, I'll invest in whatever it is to keep me healthy now to be happier, and probably spend less in healthcare when I'm older.


WorldOnFire83

I see your point. But hind-sight is 20-20. Lots of people do manual labor and never pull out their back. And Larry was likely raised with the hard-working, DIY mentality where you refuse to pay someone else to do something you can do yourself. I respect that bc he stayed true to himself, but it's still a shame because it did impact his career.


dontknowtoo

Larry Bird is an excelent player and human beeing


phr3dly

My dad was always a huge Larry Bird and John Stockton fan. I assumed it was because they were (obviously) great players. I learned later that the real reason he was a fan was because they both played great basketball while also living humbly and far below their means.


--RandomInternetGuy

[video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEmacNvCj4A) of Stockton not being recognized at the 92 Olympics by someone wearing a Dream Team shirt. For some reason, no ones thinks the pasty 6'0 white guy with no muscle definition is one of the top basketball players in the world


phr3dly

That's hilarious. Much like Bird, I think Stockton could be a bit weasely on the court, but that's just good basketball. They both seem like genuinely real people off the court.


CommandersLog

John Stockton is an anti-vaxxer.


RelishMule

As long as we're going to love on John Stockton, lets also remember that he is a covid denier and was stripped of his season tickets for refusing to wear a mask.


Dan-in-Va

Sounds like the Byrd feathered his nest well.


MysteriousSilentVoid

Larry Bird is a solid dude.


larrylegend33goat

Sadly he injured himself doing work he could have hired someone to do, shortening his career. He would have earned more in the end by spending on his health. He was on trajectory to be the greatest all time player. Still ended up the only ever MVP, Coach of the year, executive of the year. Legend


TruckFudeau22

I’ve driven past the house Bird lived in when he played for the Celtics. I’m 99% sure a mailman lives there now.


Fire_Doc2017

To some degree, people are born savers or spenders. There is some influence from those around you but I've found it's very hard to teach this. In this case I'd say it's nature over nurture, with some exceptions. It's especially hard if you come from a family that has only known poverty for multiple generations and there is no "institutional knowledge" in the family of how to generate wealth. It's great that Larry Bird was such a good saver but I wouldn't demonize those who blew all their money on frivolous things.


JustAnotherBoomer

I wish it included what he did with his savings? Did he invest in stocks, real estate ?


CCM278

Trying to work out the logistics, if I need to save 15% over a 40 year career then the NBA guys need to save 60% in a 10 year career. 401k and IRAs aren't going to cut it and taxes will be a bear. That is a steep saving rate, without the benefit of tax deductions that makes for a big hill to climb. Everything is backwards compared to the rest of us, while I can expect steadily rising income over my lifetime, so I can make mistakes and grow out of them these guys get everything up front and nothing prepares them for that experience and there is no chance to fix it years later. Hard to be too sympathetic but still does make for a completely different approach to life.


importvita

The average player now makes more in 1 year than the average person will in their lifetime. Zero sympathy from me.


MidniteMustard

I doubted this, but you're right! The median NBA salary is s $4MM a year. *Minimum* salary is $1MM for rookies, $1.8MM for second years. I'm flabbergasted.


sevenbeef

Remember the quote - “Shaq is rich. The guy who gives Shaq his paycheck is wealthy.”


CCM278

I don't disagree, but I'm a different person at 50 than I was at 20. I don't want to see anyone fail just because they are too ignorant to know better. I had a chance to fix the mistakes I made in my 20s. If a 10M dollar payday lands in my lap today my financial structures will cope. I've got a basic Boglehead system of save and invest through my 401k, IRAs and brokerage on autopilot. There is plenty of advice available and my kids will grow up with that mindset too. If I win 1Bn on the Powerball I might have to rethink some things though. These guys are jumping straight from zero to dedicated wealth management, there is no internet based self-help here. That means they are getting advice from family and their team mates who are almost certainly as clueless as them and whoever ingratiates themselves into their lives, that sounds like an opportunity for things to go badly. They have an incredible opportunity, I'd like to see them be successful.


importvita

I don't *want* them to fail, but the ones who do go out of their way to do so get no sympathy. They play a game and have much more free time than the average person and can afford to pay a professional if needed. Pick up a book, listen to a Podcast, watch a financial documentary...they all have the time and resources to better themselves. Yet they would rather spend their time goofing off or on Instagram rather than learn something valuable. Again, zero sympathy. Look at those who have grown their wealth: Bird, Jordan, Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Russell and others. Not just the superstars either, but so many are willfully ignorant it's very frustrating.


akhier

They basically have decided to trade their bodies for a lottery win that pays out over a few years.


MidniteMustard

Is NBA really that rough on bodies? I see that as more of an NFL or UFC thing. Maybe NHL.


brianmcg321

It’s a lot worse than you think. It’s the constant pounding up and down the courts day after day. Take you and a few of your friends and start playing full court for 3-4 hours every day. Then add in an hour or two of weight training.


akhier

NBA is easier than some, but remember, they're rushing around the court, making sharp turns and having to stop on a dime. Sure, they're less likely to literally lose their minds from head injuries, but I'm willing to bet that their ankles and knees are pretty shot once they're through.


VIARPE

yes. Not as bad as NFL or Boxing but many players who played 15+ years can barely walk


Sir_toolman

You try dragging Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes


Toastbuns

I'm not surprised he remembers. They say birds have very good memories.


ZealousEar775

Larry Bird would have a lot more money right now if he saved a little less and paid someone to pave his mom's driveway for him. Just saying. He didn't lose all his wealth but he played it too conservative and ruined his body cutting him out or further earning potential.


Fewwordsbetter

The union should be watching out better for their players. At least they get a pension https://hoopshype.com/2020/03/02/how-nba-pensions-work/


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FMCTandP

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